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Hate Mail

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Adarx

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The Debate
My First Post

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First, the failure of the shields of the craft to activate when struck indicates they were non-functional and thus the craft was damaged.

Circular Logic fallacy.  You are saying that the fighter was damaged because the fighter was damaged.
You have to show that the shields were down.
 

There is no shield effect when it is struck, a stark contrast to ?Interludes and Examinations? where we see shields activate on a Vorlon Heavy Cruiser when it is struck by a Shadow Molecular Slicer Beam
 

Two problems here.
*Red Herring.  We are talking about Vorlon *fighters*.  Please stay on topic.
*I don't recall any shields appearing in that episode.  You must give evidence, not vague references.
Despite your Red Herring, I will address your statement.
As far as I can tell, there were only two incidents in that episode where Shadow beams contacted a Vorlon ship.

In this image, we see the Shadow beam has not yet reached the Vorlon ship.  The Vorlon ship is powering weapons, preparing to fire.

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In this image, the beams collide.

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In this image, the beams cancel each other out, producing a brilliant light display, but no apparent damage.

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http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/shields1.mov

So where is your shield reference?
I have a couple more from Into the Fire.

; also to ?War Without End? where we see the shields of the White Star activate when shot by a Shadow fighter
 

Red Herring.
We are talking about *Vorlon fighters*.
*Whitestars are much larger and presumably more powerful than Vorlon fighters.
*The shield effects seen on the Whitestar were never again seen in the entire series.  Not when Whitestars were hit by Thunderbolts, larger ships, or even other Shadow fighters.  This is the exception rather than the rule.  It is likely that the effect seen was that individual ship's response that that particular type of weapon.  Lennier said that the system learns from previous experiences.
 

; and the most clear example was ?Thirdspace? where we see very clearly the Vorlon Shields are activated when it is shot by the Minbari/Babylon 5 fleet.
 

The Vorlons weren't in combat in Thirdspace.  What are you talking about?  The artifact?
Those weren't Vorlon shields, Adarx.  The "field" didn't appear until the aliens came through the gate and created it.

The shields around the artifact were not of Vorlon design.  They were created by the aliens to protect the artifact so they could bring more of their ships through.
 

There has been some debate as to whether or not the Vorlons have shields.  Two canon sources state they do.  First, Babylon
5 Wars source material makes reference to Vorlon EM shields a great many times.
 

Yes it does.  Babylon5 Wars has a nice forward by JMS (http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/JMS-AOG.jpg) stating that it has canon authority.  However, the canon status is debated by some.  I prefer to use sources that cannot be contested, namely the show itself.
However, since you brought it up, let's discuss it.
 

Secondly, a line I happened to catch from ?Into the Fire? that was said by Delenn after White Star 9 had just concluded its strafing run on the Vorlon Observation Post.  She said, ?Forward screens are down.?  This clearly refers to shields by their other name.
 

And it exhibited none of the shield effects you mentioned.

Secondly, if you examine the scene where the Vorlon Fighter is destroyed, you will notice no debris of any kind, indicating that the entire craft was vaporized in only one shot from the T-Bolt.
 

Incorrect and incorrect.

All of the images that show actual firing can be seen here: http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/jpg/
 

Yes, I know you say one ?volley? but if you examine the scene, only a single bolt comes close to hitting the fighter before it explodes.
 

I count 6 bolts striking the Vorlon fighter before complete destruction.
 

Odd that such light weapons will leave no debris at all
 

Much debris.

 

where the two occasions where a Vorlon Fighter is hit by a Shadow Molecular Slicer Beam, one during the initial charge and the other right before the Walker Ship appears, there is very clear and distinctive debris left after the fighter is destroyed.
 

See above.
 

This indicates that the Vorlon fighter was in fact in very poor condition when it was hit by the T-Bolt?s weapon considering it completely disintegrated upon being hit once.
 

It was hit at least 6 times in about 2/3 second (about 20 frames or so).
But it is interesting that the destruction was so violent.  It leads us to an idea that the Thunderbolt hit something that contributed to the explosion, like the engines, weapons, etc.

Also note that less durable fighters (Starfuries, Thunderbolts) are seen leaving debris after being struck by Thunderbolts weapons after multiple hits in ?Severed Dreams.?
 

Red Herring.
We are talking about *Vorlon* fighters.  Please stay on topic.
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/debris.jpg
 

Thirdly, Babylon 5 Wars states all of the following:  Earth Thunderbolt Fighter ? Page 15 Ships of the fleet:  ?The Thunderbolt is as fast as a Minbari Nial and just as heavily armed, sporting a single gatling pulse cannon capable of blowing nearly any fighter out of space in a single shot? (direct quote).  Sounds good for your case, right?

Minbari fighter stats: http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/Nial-fighter.jpg
Well, a Minbari fighter can destroy a Vorlon fighter in one 3-shot volley according to the stats.  The damage rating is 1d6+4, so a perfect roll on all three guns would be 10 points apiece, or 30 points total.  Because the guns are fire-linked, they must penetrate shields and armor individually.  So, take away 4 points for armor and 1 point for the shield per gun, leaving 15 points of damage.  If the "adaptive armor" isn't set to defend against Minbari "molecular" weapons, the 15 points equals the 15 points of structure on the Vorlon fighter, and *boom*.

Vorlon fighters page 81 B5 Wars "Ships of the fleet"

Vorlon fighters use adaptive armor skins, just as their ships do.  These skins do not benefit from any "learning" made by their carrier, but do learn from damage suffered from other fighters in their flight.  The entire flight must assign its armor points the same way.  Unlike ships, the adaptive armor on fighters cannot begin the scenario in any sort of "ready" state, and it loses its memory relatively quickly (after several days)  In campaign, it can be assumed that all memory is lost after each campaign turn.

Wrong.  Almost any = Not quite all.  Naturally the most durable fighters would be the very few that can survive multiple hits.  The Vorlon fighter was tied as the most durable fighter from the front at the time the product was released.  Therefore, the most durable fighters survive one shot, the Vorlon fighter is the most durable, therefore it can survive more than one shot.  Simple huh?
 

Not quite.  Going from "capable of blowing nearly any fighter out of space in a single shot" to saying that a Vorlon fighter can withstand a hit just because it is the most durable around is a Leap of Logic fallacy.
You must now provide a direct quote that tells us that a Vorlon fighter can withstand a direct hit from a Thunderbolt.
 

Fourthly, Babylon 5 Wars makes special note of the Vorlon fighters durability on page 81 of Babylon 5 Wars:  Ships of the Fleet:  ?Vorlon heavy fighters have one light discharge gun and no other armament.  They are heavily shielded and armored (and even a couple of adaptive armor points), and can take considerable punishment before being destroyed.?

Even if the engines were not hit (they were), one more turn would finish off the Vorlon fighter through brute force alone, beating the few points of "structure" left.
But how long is a combat turn?  Is it ever defined?
I've calculated something for comparison.  A Minbari fighter can fire its three guns once during a combat turn, and this is considered one volley, per page 46 of the 2nd edition rules compendium.

*Minbari fighters can fire all three guns in 7 frames, twice each in 16 frames of NTSC video.
*The Thunderbolt hit the Vorlon fighter at least 6 times in about 20 frames of NTSC video.

If a Minbari fighter can only fire once per turn, then a turn must be no more than a quarter second long.  They can fire each gun twice in a half second.
Since the Thunderbolt fired on the Vorlon fighter for ~2/3 second before total destruction, it took just over two turns.
So using Babylon5 Wars stats, the Thunderbolt could destroy a healthy Vorlon fighter in the time shown.
Assume a moderate first hit of 12 points, out of a maximum possible 18.  First round penetrates the shields, adaptive armor, and armor, applying the remaining 5 points to the "structure."  "Structure" now has 10 points left.  The Thunderbolt only needs to apply 56% (10 points out of a possible 18) of its firepower in the next round to destroy the Vorlon fighter by brute force
alone!

*The Thunderbolt hit the engines, or some other explosive thing in the Vorlon ship in the first hit.  That component exploded, contributing to the craft's demise.  This would probably not happen to a more resilient vessel (stronger shields), like a Vorlon battleship.
*The volley appears to have taken at least two "turns," in which time the Thunderbolt could destroy the Vorlon fighter even if the engines didn't explode.
There is no evidence in Babylon5 Wars to suggest that the fighter was damaged beforehand.
 

Fifth, we have a logic point instead of a science point.  The Vorlon fighter was moving in a strait line behind the Thunderbolt that hit (and killed) it.   Vorlon fighter made no evasive maneuvers despite having a few seconds warning.
 

Do you contend that the other Vorlon fighter was also damaged, because it didn't take evasive action in 1/2 second?  Was the other thunderbolt damaged too?

Do you contend that this individual fighter was a derelict, but was able to maintain formation with the wingman while in pursuit of two Thunderbolts?
 

Instead, it drifted in a strait line into the enemy fire.  Not only this but with an enemy directly in front of it, what possible reason could they have had for not pulling the trigger and destroying the target which was now trying to shoot it.
 

They probably were trying to shoot them.. That is why they were in pursuit.
Do you contend that it is easier to chase someone by flying a wild course?
Do you contend that it is easier to shoot an enemy while you are flying a wild course?
 

With a beam all you have to do is drag it over your enemies position so even if you are a little off you can turn your ship by a few degrees and destroy them.
 

With 28,000 ships around, 10,000 of which being your own, that may be dangerous.  Ever heard of "friendly fire?"  That is one thing that causes it.
 

What possible reasons are there for these oddities?  After all, are Vorlon fighter pilots suddenly in a hurry to die?
 

False Dilemma fallacy.
The truth is that they were flying in formation while in pursuit of two fighters in formation.  And they only had 1/2 second to react, communicate with each other, make a decision, and coordinate their maneuvers.
 

The most reasonable answer is that the fighter was dead in space.
 

Leap of Logic fallacy.
A fighter "dead in space" doesn't maintain formation in a high-speed chase.
 

It had no propulsion, no weapons, no shield.
 

Leap of Logic fallacy.
A ship with no propulsion doesn't maintain formation in a high-speed chase.  A ship with no weapons would not continue to participate in the battle, much less pursue two enemy ships.
I have shown that there is no evidence of the shields not working.
*Videos linked above show that Vorlon ships don't exhibit shield effects when hit.
*The first bolt hit on the opposite side of the fighter.  If there were any shield effects, we wouldn't see it.
*The shields may not have been set to defend from that type of weapon.  See the game rules.  They only count for 1 point of damage anyway, so don't start crowing that this is why the ship was destroyed.
 

It was a sitting, or rather drifting, duck.
 

Drifting in perfect formation during a high-speed chase???
 

If it were undamaged as you suggest, it should have blown the T-Bolt out of space before it was ever hit.
 

False Dilemma.
There are other possible reasons for this.  Chief reason may be that they were preparing to fire - that is why they were in pursuit.

So, thus far your argument has been based on
*missing shield effects - which I've shown to be the rule rather than the exception
*lack of debris - I've shown there was a lot of debris
*a play on semantics about the Vorlon fighter being so tough, and the statement about the Thunderbolt being powerful enough to blow *nearly* any fighter out of space - which I've shown that you took out of context and applied the actual stats myself
*Tautologies about the Vorlon fighter not evading or firing - it didn't do either in a fraction of a second, so what?

You have used a lot of Red Herrings, False Dilemmas, Leaps of Logic, and Circular Logic.  You have made many statements that simply aren't true (no debris, only one bolt, etc.)  You have not presented evidence.  You only made a few vague references to episodes, Babylon5 Wars, etc., without any quotes!  I have shown that those references do not support your position.

On the other hand, I have dug through your references to find evidence that they do not support your position.  I have provided video and still image evidence to back up my points.  I have quoted Babylon5 Wars and shown that the events in the series are in no way contradicted.

I feel that your first post has served only to weaken your argument.  Maybe you should present real evidence rather than make vague references that turn out to be incorrect?  Remember that the Burden of Proof is on you.  I suggest you read this: