Hate Mail
Adarx
The Debate
His Second Post
Just for fun, I will pretend that your last post was under 20k.  Aslo, do remeber to submit yours to spacebattles.
 

You said:  Circular Logic fallacy.  You are saying that the fighter was damaged because the fighter was damaged.
You have to show that the shields were down.
 

This is incorrect.  I am saying we know the fighter was damaged because it was damaged by later attacks.  WE know it was damaged because its shields were not working right.  If they had been we would have seen them activate.
 

You said:  Two problems here.
*Red Herring.  We are talking about Vorlon *fighters*.  Please stay on topic.
*I don't recall any shields appearing in that episode.  You must give evidence, not vague references.
Despite your Red Herring, I will address your statement.
As far as I can tell, there were only two incidents in that episode where Shadow beams contacted a Vorlon ship.

http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/shields1.jpg
 

No, we are talking about Vorlon defense systems which appear on those fighters.  They are the same system as shown by b5wars yet you are suggesting completely different reactions to weapons fire when struck.

As for the first one, we don't know for certain that it was the beam.  In fact given that the flash of light engulfed the entire fornt end of the vorlon ship.  The yellow part you circles could easily be part of the yellow background of the nebula.  Where the beam hits the beam or shield we see some kind of reaction taking place without much change from the background at all.  It looks like it hit some kind of shield.
 

You said:  Red Herring.
We are talking about *Vorlon fighters*.
*Whitestars are much larger and presumably more powerful than Vorlon fighters.
*The shield effects seen on the Whitestar were never again seen in the entire series.  Not when Whitestars were hit by Thunderbolts, larger ships, or even other Shadow fighters.  This is the exception rather than the rule.
It is likely that the effect seen was that individual ship's response that that particular type of weapon.  Lennier said that the system learns from previous experiences.
 

We are talking about Vorlon defense systems.
How is this relevant to whether or not shields activate when struck?  In other cases the shields vould be down.  Not only this but only the skin learns, not the shields.
Sounds like specualtion.  It is likely that the effect...  Doesn't the simplest explanation (it struck the shiedls and the shields showed) win out as you say?
 

You said:  The Vorlons weren't in combat in Thirdspace.  What are you talking about?  The artifact?
Those weren't Vorlon shields, Adarx.  The "field" didn't appear until the aliens came through the gate and created it.
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/tspace1.avi
In this clip, the aliens appear, and their ships begin forming the field.  Cut to a Starfury pilot who discusses the newly appearing field with another pilot.  Then the Starfuries attack the artifact, and their weapons react with the field.
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/tspace2.avi
More ships attacking the field.  Note how the beams react.
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/tspace3.avi
Ships attacking the alien ships, which have shields like the one they put around the artifact.  Note how the beams and pulses react with these shields.  Identical to the one on the artifact.
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/tspace4.avi
A whitestar toe to toe with an alien ship.  Note that the beam reacts with the shields just like they do on the artifact.  Also note there are no "shield effects" on the Whitestar.
The shields around the artifact were not of Vorlon design.  They were created by the aliens to protect the artifact so they could bring more of their ships through.
 

I am indeed refering to the artifact.  You claim that the shield was TSA tech though we don't know this.  Recall that the TSA began coming through the gate very shortly after it regained power.  Thus it is more likely that the gate restored shields with power.  You have made an unsupported assertion that the shields were TSA tech and not the Vorlons who built it.
 

You said:  Yes it does.  Babylon5 Wars has a nice forward by JMS (http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/JMS-AOG.jpg) stating that it has canon authority.  However, the canon status is debated by some.  I prefer to use sources that cannot be contested, namely the show itself.
However, since you brought it up, let's discuss it.

Lets.

You said:  And it exhibited none of the shield effects you mentioned.
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/shields3.avi
In this clip, we see the Whitestar fleet attacking the Vorlon outpost.  When weapons hit the outpost, no shield effects are seen.  Note that several shots come before Delenn tells Captain Sheridan that the "screens are down."
When weapons hit the Whitestars, no shield effects are seen.
 

Recall, the shields are down.  Even if you want to go this way, it proved they have shields.

You said:  Incorrect and incorrect.

http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/debris.jpg
Looks like debris to me.
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/1bolt.jpg
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/2bolt.jpg
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/3bolt.jpg
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/4bolt.jpg
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/5bolt.jpg
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/6bolt.jpg
At least 6 bolts hit the Vorlon fighter before it was completely destroyed.
You can visually track the bolts when viewing the file frame by frame, and you can easily see how the explosion increases in intensity each time a bolt hits.

http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/debrisani.gif
GIF animation of the 6 bolts striking the Vorlon fighter.

All of the images that show actual firing can be seen here:
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/jpg/

I count 6 bolts striking the Vorlon fighter before complete destruction.
 

Interesting that what you claim to be debris is not onscured by the Drazi warship which crashes into the camera.  In the last few frames you can plainly see that the "debris" is too close to the camera to have come from the fighter.

Now please examine the word volley:

Definition taken from dictionary.com:

   1.
         1. A simultaneous discharge of a number of missiles.
         2. The missiles thus discharged.
   2. A bursting forth of many things together: a volley of oaths.
   3. Sports.
         1. The flight of a ball before it touches the ground: kicked the soccer ball on the volley.
         2. A shot, especially in tennis, made by striking the ball before it touches the ground.

No missiles thus none of these apply.

Another one:

1. A flight of missiles, as arrows, bullets, or the like; the simultaneous discharge of a number of small arms.
 

Simultaneous discharge of weapons is a volley?  You just admitted six volleys destroyed the fighter!  You just defeated yourself!
 

You said:  Red Herring.
We are talking about *Vorlon* fighters.  Please stay on topic.
http://www.babtech-onthe.net/adarx/debris.jpg
 

No, we are talking about the fire of thunderbolts effect on Vorlon fighters.  Half of that is the fire form the T-Bolt.
 

You said:  Not quite.  Going from "capable of blowing nearly any fighter out of space in a single shot" to saying that a Vorlon fighter can withstand a hit just because it is the most durable around is a Leap of Logic fallacy.
You must now provide a direct quote that tells us that a Vorlon fighter can withstand a direct hit from a Thunderbolt.
 

Wrong.  Capable of means what the very best that can happens is.  If I am capable of jumping up to 2 meters, the best I can jump is two meters.  If it is capable of destroying almost any fighter, it is not capable of destroying every fighter because capable refers to under the best circumstances.  Thus, it is correct that the most durable wouls survive a single hit whilst the
lesser fighters cannot.  Here, lets do this your way.  Capable of destroying almost any fighter means capable of destroying any fighter except the most robust/durable.  So the book effectively says The Thunderbolt can destroy any but the most durable in a single shot.  Now, the Vorlon fighter is the most durable so we replace most durable with vorlon fighter.  Now we are left with the Thunderbolt can destroy any fighter except the Vorlon fighter in one shot, correct?
 

To save space, I won't quote the rest.

They were trying to shoot them but never shot?  The targets were directly in front of them yet they never shot.

Anyway, you killed your own arguement simply by applying your statement of 6 shots and the definition of volley, you just sank your own arguement.  Either it was six volleys in which case your statement is wrong or it was one volley and only one shot hit which makes it impossible from babylon 5 wars.

On to my second rebuttal